Renovation of individual houses

Hello, welcome to the Bâti Journal tv set. We are at the Mondial du Bâtiment and we will be talking this afternoon with my guests about renovating individual houses.

Fifteen million single-family homes in France

There are 15 million houses in France, it is half of the park and, obviously, among these 15 million individual houses, there are many to renovate and to renovate obviously in an efficient way in terms of energy and of consumption.

To my left Mr. Giovanni Lecat, hello! You are a delegate of Thermorénov, corresponding member of LCA FFB. Can you tell us a little more about these two organizations?

-Then Thermorenov is an association which brings together renovator builders and general contracting companies involved in the renovation of single-family homes. So all these companies have the common point of practicing the equivalent of the construction contract for a single-family house, of applying to the renovation, which is called a renovation contract.

So really a specialist in single-family homes. Next to you Philippe Méon. Hello, you are president of Énergies & Avenir. Energies & Avenir what is it?

-Énergies & Avenir is an association which was created in 1991 and which represents all professionals in hot water heating and domestic hot water. So it goes from energy specialists to professionals in the building, operation, maintenance, upkeep. It also includes manufacturers and distributors. Globally, it is a sector which weighs 90 billion euros in turnover, 300,000 jobs and jobs that cannot be relocated.

So you represent absolutely the whole chain, the whole spectrum. In front of you, Mr. Jocelyn Gac, hello! You are coordinator of inter-business action, energy transition of the Compagnons du Duty and the Tour de France. So normally we no longer present them but you will present them to us.

-Absolutely ! Because we often forget that the Compagnons du Duty train in thirty different trades, in six sectors: from industry to flexible materials. More specifically, for Bâtimat, we train in the finishing and structural work sectors. Three audiences, therefore apprentices from all trades, so we train a little less than 5,000 apprentices per year at the present time. We also train young people who learn their trade by traveling, called companions, itinerants. And we also train company employees and we know less that we are also listening and available to companies to train their employees, support them in their skills development.

And we will talk about the energy transition and obviously the renovation of single-family homes. Next to you, Jean Pascal Chirat, hello. You are vice president of the National Federation of Heaters and I will same same question, what is this National Federation of Heaters?

-So, the Federation actually represents all, all wholesalers in heating and sanitary equipment in France. It is a profession that represents around 7 billion euros in turnover, 2,000 points of sale, 20,000 employees and which is an interface between manufacturers and construction companies specializing in the field of heating and heating. sanitary facilities.

So you are very interested in boilers among other things? -So especially and particularly, since about 50% of these famous 7 billion that I told you about represent activities related to thermal and climatic engineering. So, we will immediately tackle our little debate and I will ask you to set the scene for the renovation of the single-family house a little.

A comprehensive renovation of housing

And if I understood correctly, you don't renovate your single-family home to save energy.

-So, in part. In fact, what we can see is that for ten years now, since the Thermorénov association was originally created by builders of individual houses from the main union of LCA builders who wanted to be interested in the home renovation market but with an approach on the energy dimension. And what we realized quite quickly is that if we limit our approach, our argument to the energy dimension, that is not enough to convince individuals to renovate their homes in a comprehensive way.

What does it take to convince them? Is it a contribution of comfort, it is well-being, it is beauty, aesthetics, architecture?

-It is a bit of all that in fact, it is simply to meet their needs and their expectations and individuals do not come to see us to renovate their homes energetically. They come to us to improve their comfort, improve their well-being, their accommodation quite simply for themselves and for the occupants. And so necessarily it goes through embellishment, by comfort, hence the notion of comfort energy of thermal comfort behind which we find the energy dimension precisely.

But if I do the overall renovations, we'll say I need to change my boiler, so I think I'll save energy, but you see yourself more people coming to see on the global than on a particular post of the house?

-The interest of individuals in coming to see a general contractor or a renovating builder is that the company takes care of everything. It's turnkey. So that is to say that if we are on a single batch, a one-off action to replace a boiler or replace windows, very often the craftsmen will be better positioned to carry out this type of work. On the other hand, as soon as we are on multi-lot work, therefore involving several trades, which will require coordination, project management and support upstream. There for once it becomes interesting to have a single company that takes care of everything.

For an energy renovation

Who takes care of everything and who will make the proposal for energy efficiency. So, I'm going to give you the floor, Mr. Méon, because you at Énergies & Avenir did the study. Because we just talked about global renovation, all that comes at a cost, and you did a study which shows that ultimately the return on investment is interesting and fairly rapid.

-Yes, we updated a study that was done in 2010 and therefore it was CETIAT that did the study for us. We started with a house from the 70s, one hundred square meters, not insulated. And we see that with work, in particular the insulation of the attic and the change of the generator, we can achieve 62% energy savings. And it is true that with all the laws which have followed one another, in particular in 2015 to the law of energy transition for green growth, which nevertheless gives an objective in 2030 of -40% of greenhouse gases, it is important to renovate to consume less. And we see that there is a return on investment, we realize that the house, for example which was heated with gas, with the insulation of the attic, change by a condensing boiler, for work around 6000 euros and a return on investment in less than four years.

Six thousand euros, I was going to say, it's not expensive.

-No, but it is the price which was observed, it is the C4 which made the study. And we realize that there is aid, in particular the Eco PTZ loan, which allows it to finance its work.

To finance its work. So overall, if I have a house that is a thermal strainer, because what you described to us is a thermal strainer, can I save 60% by doing the attic and changing the generators? But on a house, we will say a little later in the 80s and 90s, where we have already worked a little on the insulation, we have already worked a little on the envelope, there may be double windows. first generation glazing, do we have the same gains? Does your study also show the gains?

-No, the study for us, focused only on what you were saying: thermal strainers, but which are numerous, there are several million in France. And it is true that this is where we can obtain the greatest gain in terms of energy saving and even at the country level. So, we concentrated there, but it is correct that someone who would have a generator from the 90s, today with the new generator, whether it is in particular the condensing boilers or the hybrid boilers which are of small pump heat with either a gas or fuel oil boiler, you can also achieve an energy saving of almost 30%.

Just by changing the generator which is in its twenties?

-Just by changing the generator which is twenty years old, that's it.

This is what we will also see with you, so it is absolutely necessary to change the generator?

-You ask me the question, I will answer yes of course, so with a nuance all the same. What I can tell you in terms of figures is: you said earlier that there are 15 million single-family homes, if we look at the number of boilers in France, the French fleet is 13 million boilers. 13 million boilers that are in existence, but they only replace five hundred thousand each year. Five hundred thousand is the maximum figure for years of replacement.

-That means it's 3/4%, right?

-3 / 4%, that means one every 20/25 years. So the park is old, the park is old, it still works, but it has a certain rate of obsolescence and it is obvious that by replacing equipment which is perhaps not completely ruined, with modern equipment with high energy performance, yes certainly there is a gain! A gain, Mr. Méon said, of maybe 30% which is for sure. However, today, we can clearly see that consumers always wait until the last moment, that is to say the fatal failure, to replace equipment when there is an interest in doing so, there are opportunities. there is also a whole lot of help to do so, etc ... And that it might be enough for all or at least some of the consumers to receive messages, for their relationship with professionals to develop into a relationship of confidence and then from that moment, gradually, we would manage to change the course of things a little bit. It is a wish, in any case, that we formulate at the level of our Federation. Yes that's it. Don't hesitate, I'm not going to say it's like a car but almost, is it?

What is the good change if we do not change the building envelope? When should the generator be changed? 7/8/10 years?

The average life of a generator at present will be between 12 and 15 years, but we can clearly see that we do not have the same rhythms of life between a generator, a working equipment, and the frame. So this is the reason why sometimes it is necessary to replace the equipment first because obviously it is old. This does not prevent focusing on a renovation of the building, as Mr. Lecat said, we can at the same time combine or combine work on boilers and insulation of attics. This is where we ultimately have the best rate of return on investment.

Building diagnosis

I come back to you about the renovation, what to do, how do you make a diagnosis and what do you propose? Do you first propose to work on the envelope, then do you tackle the generator or do you say you might as well redo everything? How is the customer relationship going and how do you convince your customers that maybe you need to go a lot harder? Because for them it is a cost.

-There are a lot of parameters to take into account. There is on the one hand, there is the existing, what are we going to find, it dates from what period? What was done by the owner, by the previous owner? Also the client's budget, because the ideal would be to treat the frame, to treat all the equipment but, very often the budget does not allow to treat everything at the same time ... So we will in fact analyze the condition of what already exists, both structurally and thermally. And we will inevitably rather initially, recommend to have a quality envelope therefore to have a frame which is efficient in order to dimension as effectively as possible the equipment which will intervene thereafter. But the ideal is indeed a quality frame and equipment which is packaged, which is sized correctly.

Because I was going to ask both of them, the equipment is in sizing and installation and we will talk about it later, which are also the most important? That is to say, once I have a perfectly insulated envelope, my equipment must be efficient and how do I choose?

-It is true that it requires professionals to make a diagnosis and see what is the best equipment, the power you need according to your home, according to the surface, according to the place where you live whether it is very cold regions or less cold regions. Perhaps specify that as in any field of capital goods there is a level, there is a technique and then choices. At a minimum, the equipment must have high energy performance, then it can be matched with additional regulation equipment, etc. high level.

The success of an energy renovation project High level performance and therefore high level installation. What are we seeing today? What does it take to succeed in an energy renovation project for a building and a single-family house in particular?

-I would say that once all these observations have been made, you need seasoned professionals, trained professionals. You said it a moment ago, it is also up to professionals to be able to make the diagnosis to put the right object, whether it is in the envelope, or which is a heating or even cooling system, in the right place and for that companies need to be trained.

I think that with the roundtable that has just been done, we realize that the issues are changing, practices are changing, so it is necessary for companies to be supported in a rise in advanced skills so that they understand these issues. and know how to apply it in their profession.

In the practices of professionals, we will talk about young people later, but who come to see you, do you feel them, are they aware of the issues and of the need to perhaps work a little better together? We talked a lot about it at the time of RT 2012, that we all had to work together, did we get there and are we getting to today, managing the different interfaces between the envelope and technical equipment?

-I would say better and better. I would not say that we are still completely successful on the subject for two reasons: because it is very difficult to train all the construction employees who are now in activity. We believe in young people, by training young people through porosity, we will succeed in bringing back good practices in companies. We also know that this will not be enough, we must establish a culture of increasing skills in companies. Is it the company that must come to the training center or is it the training center that must go to the company? I think that the second solution is also one of the avenues that is being studied in order to be able to support professionals in their daily problems directly on the site. Airtightness in particular, we often talk about airtightness on the casing, it is never better treated than in a situation to explain to a professional at the same time what is the right way to to do but also what consequences to poor workmanship on the entire site.

So training is also done on site. Is that what you also see in the projects you do? At the level of the rise, has there been an increase in the skills of companies on the point of energy renovation and the management of these interfaces, we are talking about problems for example of air passage?

-It is precisely the role of being able to carry a global contract and to be a single interlocutor, that means that we will coordinate and manage the various stakeholders. So whether through a project manager, an architect, a works supervisor, whatever happens, the work is coordinated by the company to which the individual has entrusted his work. So here it is the company that engages its responsibility for carrying out the work and therefore this coordination is necessarily very important.

Do we do an airtightness test on the buildings, finally on the houses that you are renovating? Do we do it a bit at random or systematically? Are there people asking?

-So, that, airtightness is mandatory in the context of new and renovation under the label. If we have a BBC renovation label, then the test must be carried out. On the other hand, individuals who come to see us to renovate their accommodation, if there is no request for a label and therefore for regional aid relating to obtaining a BBC label, very clearly they will not spend money to do a leak test. Yes, just in addition, we use the blower door in training as a tool to check air tightness, as an educational tool and not necessarily only in the sense that we have obtained a label behind. This is to explain what the good practice is and where the details are most important to be covered. And the study also shows that by working on the frame, therefore between the insulation either of the floors, or of the interior, exterior walls, the attic, change of generator, we can obtain a BBC house.

So the 70s house that was a thermal strainer, if I do an overall ...?

-Here, on a house that we have estimated therefore 100 m² and the average cost is between 25,000 and 30,000 euros, we can have a BBC house. "" Okay, by insulating, by changing the windows, by insulating the attic and changing the generator?

-There you go, insulating the floors, working on the insulation of the frame and changing the windows and the generator. And when you say twenty-five or thirty thousand euros, is that what I'm going to pay in the end after the tax credit or is it really the overall bill and then I can benefit from various aids?

-This is the overall bill. And in particular there is the loan, so the eco PTZ, which can go in this case up to 30,000 euros and which in the majority of cases that we have studied is sufficient to finance its work.

On the installers, I imagine that you both work in relation with them, are there any specific training actions to help them better ... how to say ... maintenance ? Because I also imagine that in terms of maintenance, we will be able to save energy, because if we have a device which, after five years, has not been maintained, it will not will not work properly.

-Yes, we work in close relation with professional organizations, in this case the building trades, CAPEB, FFB. Moreover, they are partners in our organizations, we both work together to support skills upgrading through existing solutions in terms of Fibat-type training, in the event of RGE-type qualification. We are promoters of these solutions because it brings a guarantee of professionalism, in fact, on the market. You were talking about maintenance, I am giving you a figure that is not neutral at all ... I told you earlier there are 13 million boilers, well there are barely two thirds that are maintained regularly, whereas since 2009 there has been a law in France which requires that a generator be maintained. However, they are not all, they are two-thirds, so there is a third that are poorly maintained and that inevitably can generate poor performance or failures. So we realize that there is indeed a need to communicate and educate, not only the pros and also individuals to the needs of quality.

Awareness is on the side of the professionals but it is also on the side of the user. We need to empower them a little bit. Do you all agree with that? -Yes, in fact at Énergie & Avenir we did a maintenance guide last year. We also noticed that a well-maintained boiler is 10% less consumption. "" Before even changing it finally eh?

-Yes, so I mean already it pays for maintenance just to do maintaining your boiler, the cost of maintenance is found at the level it can be found at the comfort level and it is also found at the energy saving level.

And what we can also find at the commercial level is the relationship between the craftsman and his client, to support him in using his equipment properly to avoid what is called the rebound effect in particular, this ie an observation of no reduction in energy consumption because the equipment is poorly used, or we arrive on the phenomena of overheating. And the relationship between the well-formed company and the client precisely allows the client to have a good understanding of his renovation.

- Of its renovation and of the whole in fact, of what it will be able to have like energy gain by changing its boiler or quite simply by maintaining it correctly. In conclusion

So we come a little bit to the end of our discussion, I'm going to ask you a little bit of each conclusion on these themes of renovation of the individual house and how to succeed in your project. So if you have any advice to give, whether it is for individuals or professionals, take advantage of it now! What advice would you all give for a successful energy renovation of your detached house? We start with you!

-So it would simply be to take advantage of all the opportunities to intervene in the house to embark on energy work. I would say that we could, at the time of a transfer, of a real estate transaction, at the time of a family event when we have a birth that we need more space, that we simply want improve its comfort, have a house that is better suited to the spaces that we can expect today in terms of light, spaces that are rather open and not closed like old houses. So all these interventions are opportunities to do beautification work but also to embark on energy work, but also why not to prepare for the future and to think about aging well at home for your old age for example.

-Yes, I think it's true, that often in France we wait until the device is broken to change it. We see, for example, that the Germans do not have this way of doing things at all and that they change their equipment much more often. And I think that the particular, unlike a car where you have fun, or a beautiful kitchen in particular, maybe changing your generator or saving energy does not occur to her. But when you see the return on investment, I think it's a good investment, first for the planet and also for finances ...

That's it, for household finances, because with the savings we are going to make we may be able to buy a slightly more efficient car or an electric car! Your conclusion?

- As a conclusion I will take an example, I was exchanging with a journeyman carpenter not very long ago, who told me that his client was mounted on the scaffolding and showed him on his tablet an extract from the DTU in explaining to the carpenters that what he is doing was wrong. Luckily, this journeyman carpenter knew the DTU very well and explained to him that in the case he is implementing, what his client showed him did not apply. What I mean by that is that more and more customers are getting information. Maybe sometimes with good reason, maybe sometimes with some evil ...

Information perhaps a little misunderstood, because it is too technical?

-Absolutely. But that, the craftsman today if he wants to keep his sites, if he wants to keep his activity a little bit, must continue to develop skills on these new technologies, on these new techniques, the regulations and then you Say, tax credits, etc ... It is also the craftsman who becomes the interface between the administrative world and the customer. So for that, I really encourage companies to continue to train to continue to develop their turnover and their skills, and to train in this sector which for them is a market, I was going to say colossal. And then it is a market that is not likely to decline because, as the gentleman said, these houses exist, and something will have to be done with them, absolutely.

Sir, your conclusion then?

-As we have a space for speaking, this is the opportunity to send a friendly message to public authorities since you know that we are discussing the 2018 finance bill. This is particularly important in terms of aid, of fiscal aid, it is stability, it is of course to maintain what exists, which works, not to stigmatize such and such solution or such or such energy, which can sometimes be tempting. But on the contrary, to give the professional world and the consumer world the impression of a good mastery of the subject. What is important is after all, both the quality of course of the equipment and the quality of the implementation, as we have said, because this is what will ultimately guarantee the quality of the service provided. . I just want to add: all our studies can be downloaded free of charge from our Énergies & Avenir site.

All right, so we can go see them. So if I understood correctly, a well-done and comprehensive renovation that brings comfort, efficient heaters, businesses that work properly and stability in terms of aid in public policy ... Well listen, thank you a lot of coming to participate in this little exchange on built-up newspaper tv. It is therefore a video to find on our Bâtijournaltv site and on the site of our partner which is France Bois Forêt. Thank you, bye, see you soon!